Obama just said that he considers health care to be a right (as opposed to McCain who said it was a responsibility). My question is, how does he (Obama) determines who gets rights and who doesn't?
In the Declaration of Independence the founding fathers said: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"
So the Doctor who spends 8 years going through school, and however longer in a residency, finally gets through and sets up shop with the hope of paying off his student loans and providing for his family, under Obama, this Doctor has no rights, the patient will say "I want this treatment" the Doctor says, "this treatment costs me X to provide to you, and you can't/won't pay it", the patient says "who cares, it's my right, ask Obama" so my question to Obama: What about the Doctors' rights? Or is it the Doctor's fault for being a Doctor?
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I agree. This is the problem and one of the things that scares Ben the most about Obama taking office. I just hope the majority of the American people are as smart as you.
Yeah, it scares me too, I'm just not too sure the rest of America sees it. It's part of why I've been so politically active this year. We already have the Democrats in power in the Senate, If Obama gets elected, and gets to appoint Supreme Court Justices...in my mind we'll be 1917 Russia, which I'm pretty sure, didn't work out too good.
Sorry Chuck.....I am one of those who will be voting for Obama this year. I have done ALOT of research and reading and watched all the debates and honestly, it's McCain who scares me. Healthcare is a huge concern for our family and Obama's plan makes much more sense to me. If the doctors get paid less, so be it. I think that they're overpaid anyway. I believe that healthcare is a right. Every person in this country should have the right to recieve proper medical services, regardelss of their income or employment status. Our family is thousands of dollars in debt because of medical bills due to lack of adequate health insurance. McCains health care plan would most likely leave many families like ours without insurance and unable to buy a private policy due to pre-existing health conditions.
Sorry Kristin, I have to disagree with most of what you are saying. It is your right to vote for who you want to and my little sister Heather is also an Obama lover and will be voting for him. As a wife of someone who has lived with a pre-existing condition for many years and as someone who has worked hard and full time since we got married to make sure that my husband has had insurance, I believe that health care (insurance) is someone's own responsibility. You are responsible to get insurance for yourself and your family. You should not rely on the government to fund your health care. Even with health insurance, Dr appts, medication and supplies to treat diabetes is thousands and thousands of dollars a year,and that is if every goes well and there are no complications.
As a nurse, do I believe that patients have a right to be treated? Yes. Do I believe that they have a right to insurance? Yes. But do I believe that people who do not work, do not do anything to better themselves and make there entire life about living off the government, all along smoking, drinking alcohol, doing drugs, not exercising, not taking care of their bodies and then ending up in the hospital to be treated with all of their chronic and new diseases they have aquired have a right to health insurance and health care, NOPE.
Who will end up paying for this health care plan of Obamas's? Those of us (the working middle class) who are responsible, still pay thousands and thousands of dollars a year for health care and have our own insurance.
Kristin
Well, I'm going to do something that I probably shouldn't, and butt my little nose into this debate. I just read an interesting book called "The Two-income trap" by Elizabeth Warren. I highly recommend it, and probably will refuse to continue to debate this with someone until they read it also, so we are dealing with the same set of statistics. Basically, almost all middle-class families live on the brink of disaster. 97% of families who file for bankruptcy do so in the wake of three disasters: a breakup of the family (death or divorce), a job loss, or a medical problem (of either one of the income earners of the family, a child, or even an aging parent).
Almost all families who are driven to bankruptcy because of medical reasons HAD INSURANCE at the onset of the problem.
Even the quality of insurance itself has declined so much that no one-even those who buy their own insurance- are completely safe from medical disasters. AS you both know, just caring for a previous condition is costly. There seems to be an emerging thing called faux-insurance. When you think you are covered until you actually need that coverage and the insurance won't pay. Insurance is not guarantee that you will be O.K.
Well, I divulge, read the book.
I guess that I would have done my italics differently, I would have italicized LIFE instead of the pursuit of happiness. To me, getting proper health care is more like a right to life.
I think giving everyone access to education through high school- FREE education- is one of the great things about American. It gives everyone an equal opportunity to excel. Universal education you could call it. No one wants to take that away from our children. I just happen to think (and you are welcome to disagree with me, and I will still love you and not be nasty and mean to you) that health care should be the same way.
Grandma Tiede asked me during our very heated political discussion after Chauncey's baptism why I would ever want Universal (Socialist, she called it) health care. "Do you want to not be able to choose your own doctor?"
"I already can't choose my own doctor. My insurance company chooses what doctors I can and can't see!"
The way I see it, we already have Socialized medicine for the poor, and the old, The working/middle class has to be in precarious financial circumstances to BUY what those groups are already getting for free (with tax dollars paid by said working/middle class people) I think we should just have it available for everyone.
You know, Kristin and Erick have worked hard, and had insurance, and yet, they are only held back because of medical bills that they wouldn't have if we had universal health care. They did everything the right way. They bought Cobra. They had insurance. They would be debt-free if there were universal health care. Free to "pursue happiness" away from the confines of their parents basement. I respect them for trying to do it the right way. But they way they are forced to do it right now is messed up.
Our lives would be COMPLETELY different if Justin had diabetes, I had to have surgery, Chauncey had a tumor, Shakayla had epilepsy, and Mikira was autistic.
I guess we all want justice until we're the one who need mercy.
P.S. I just want to add that I think that you, Kristin are an amazing person. I was impressed by your work ethic when Chuck first married you. You have not only always had a job, sometimes a 2nd and 3rd, but have also taken great care of Chuck. He could not have married a better person. As I re-read things I realize that we all want better health care, etc. we just disagree about the way to get it. Or, I should said, which candidates way of getting it for us. But I still love all my family, no matter what they think politically. I guess I just love free speech too much!
Good comments. Free speech is awesome and always welcome here. (I could divert here about the appointment of Supreme Court Justices and why I'm so scared of Obama, it goes to the 2nd Amendment case recently decided, which has nothing to do with guns, but everything to do with a Federal Judge determining that the Bill of Rights are only guaranteed to States, not individuals, imagine the implications of the 1st Amendment only applying to States! What is so frightening to me is that the Supreme Court decision striking down the case was only 5-4, meaning that we're only ONE Supreme Court Justice away from loosing the Bill of Rights, freaking scary).
But on Health Care, maybe I should restate so I don't come off too harsh.
My problem is making it a Right. A right is something that the government must protect and assure to all. The problem in so doing is that to ensure a right of care, is to force others to provide that care, i.e. taking away their rights. I'm willing to allow, through the electoral process, changes in the way we do things, but I'm totally unwilling to allow "Senator Government" to be the one who arbitrarily decide who gets what, who makes too much, etc.
The other major problem is simply feasability, there are too many factors that I do not believe have been considered, one of those would be the Federal Tort Claims Act. You cannot sue the government, they have sovriegn immunity, unless they waive it. So if the goverment is providing the health care, either we have no recourse when they screw up providing the care, or they allow us to sue, if we didn't go bankrupt providing the coverage, we'll certainly go bankrupt paying for it.
Also, I do have choice of Dr. right now, but it's a choice that is dictated by my funds. Right now I can pay to see any Dr. I want, I just have to be willing to pay for it. Just like I can live where ever I want, if I'm willing to pay for it. I'm not willing to turn over my right to choose my care over to the government. I was sick this summer, I had several tests done. I saw several Doctors, many were not in my health care plan, but I chose to pay for it, and I don't think anyone else should have to, even though I am technically living at a poverty level right now.
It is truly a complicated issue, I don't claim to have all the answers, just my opinions :)
I'll do my best to read the book, Michelle, though probably not during the semester
What I mean by taking away others rights in forcing them to provide care, let me give you an example. Kristin is quite small, most of her patients are obese (and do not have insurance, are being paid by welfare).
One of the things she has to do is turn her patients over so they don't get bed sores - this has caused her a lot of back pain which is begining to be a problem, now her health and quality of life has been (maybe permenantly) damaged, so if the government requires care, they with one fail swoop will take away rights that the care givers have.
I agree about having the freedom of speech. I also think that everyone is welcome to their own opinions about issues. I felt like I needed to say something because it was sounding a bit personal. I wasn't sure if you guys knew how hard a time Erick and Kristin have had paying medical bills EVEN WITH INSURANCE. They are not trying to rob or mistreat those in the medical industry, or force tax payers to pay the bill. Some of us just happen to think the solution to the health care crisis is different than what you think it is. That's the beauty of America.
I really hope that Kristin does not have back problems. I think that any profession we choose (and as far as I know, health care is still a chosen profession, no one is forced to be a doctor, nurse, etc.) has risks, from carpel tunnel, to other injuries. Those of us with husbands in the construction industry still know that every day they go to work they run a high risk of injury. But, I think if you are going to put your political ideas forward, aside from using your own experiences, it is nice to reference credible statistics (hence the reference to Elizabeth Warren's research) and logical reasoning, but let's be careful not to make it a personal attack.
Because Erick smokes I don't think that makes him undeserving of medical care. Just as I don't think fat people are undeserving. (For that matter I could say that Diabetics with addictions to Mike and Ike candies are undeserving of medical care). I don't want to draw wrong conclusions from what you are saying, but it sounds like you are saying that health care is not a right, but should only be given to those who deserve it- meaning, those who can pay for it themselves, or who take good care of their bodies. That doesn't seem like good reasoning to me. If health care were only given to those who deserved it (meaning those who could pay, weren't fat, and never did drugs or anything else harmful to their bodies) WHO would determine the guideline for who did and did not deserve it? I don't think health care should be a privilege of the wealthy. Illness and disease are no respecters of people. They do not come only to those who can financially afford it, or even, to those who deserve it. No matter how hard Justin and I worked to provide and take care of our children, the bottom line is that on a middle class income we could never pay our own medical bills if one of our children were hit with a serious illness. As a parent, I'm sure you would agree that you would do anything to help your child if they were sick. You would go into debt. You would go broke. You would mortgage away any future you might have to take care of that child.
I just don't think we should make parents go that far. And I think that insurance companies are failing us in that regard.
As a tax payer, would I mind that some of my dollars went to caring for other people's children? Not one bit! Even if that means that in the process, some lazy, undeserving person also gets health care? Yes, it's a risk I am willing to take.
I realize that it may mean that doctors do not earn the high salaries that attract so many to the profession. I guess that I am still an idealist who would like to think that doctors also want to help sick people get well, not just drive nice cars and take expensive vacations.
I know that health care is a complicated issue, and there are many different ideas out there to solve it, I just happen to think that Universal Health care is the best option on the table.
But that's just my standpoint. You are welcome to yours. And I still love and respect you. I may have broken my own rule and made that too personal. It wasn't meant to be any sort of attack on your position, or you and Kristin personally, just a defense of Kristin and Erick, and our position on health care. You should also know, that while Justin is definitely voting for Obama, I am undecided. I am on my way to get tickets to see Sarah Palin when she is here this weekend. Maybe she will sway me the "right" direction. I am pretty powerful, you know, living in a swing state and all. :)
Well I certainly didn't want to make anything personal. I am completely unaware of Erick & Kristin's finances (and no, I'm not asking to know about them, it's none of my business).
And I completely agree with you that insurance companies have failed us (and this from a former insider)
I also don't think that Erick's choice to smoke should prevent him from getting insurance, but I certainly think he should pay more than I do, maybe that's harsh, but I just feel that other people should not have to pay for a poor health choice. Maybe this is a bad example, but when I did insurance claims, a person could choose to not wear their seatbelt, but by not wearing their seatbelt, they did not recieve as high an injury settlement as a person with the same injury who wore a seatbelt, because their choice increased their risk, they were not entitled to the same pay.
I would love to see health care extended to all people, but my main holdup is calling it a right and making the government mandates. It's too much like socialism. I can't vote for Obama because so much of his platform is that, what I call "penalize the productive".
Also, I found this article interesting. Apparently Hawaii tried universal health care, but it didn't work, I thought the second paragraph was pretty telling of the problems that would happen nationally.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,439607,00.html
Before this gets any uglier, how about this? Instead of telling us everything that is wrong with Universal Health Care, why don't you, in a new post, tell us your idea for solving the health care crisis in America? If we all agree that the insurance system is failing us, then give us a viable solution. I'm all ears.
P.S. your link to the story didn't work. Try emailing it to me.
I didn't think we were getting ugly, we're just disagreeing, which, at least until Nov 4th, is still okay :).
I don't recall ever saying that there was a health care crisis that needed to be solved, so I can't lay out my plan for fixing it. Although, I could tell you that I think the solution has to do with cost, which requires integrity; integrity from the insurance companies, integrity from the health care providers, and integrity from the health care recipients. It would require people like Senator John Edwards to not bring multi-million dollar suits against insurance companies, pharmecutical companies and hospitals. Quite frankly, I think it's impossible.
Also, I want to counsel anyone reading this to not make the mistake of thinking that I am simply sitting here spouting off from the comfort of my fully insured recliner. Our family has many medical bills, none of which have anything to do with my Diabetes. No body knows about them, and that is intentional, but know that I, like others am struggling to pay my medical bills.
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